startup assist for velomobiles?

[Moz]

Riding my velo around I keep thinking I don't want power assist so
much as "kick me up to speed" assist. I'm thinking a small
RC-helicopter style motor that's only good for 30s at a time, but that
would get me to 30kph or so much faster that I can do it by myself.
Combines with a smallish power pack from RC toys, it could make for a
very lightweight addition. I'm also looking at the disk rotor mount of
the Rohloff and wondering about using that.

I vaguely recall one of the CF lowracer guys having built one but
can't recall the details.

Is anyone doing this, or better, making a kit?

Moz

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[John Riley]

You have been around awhile, so you may have already seen this, but FWIW John Tetz did a lot of work with minimal assist.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/tetz/E-AssistMetric/default.htm

Post by Moz
Riding my velo around I keep thinking I don't want power assist so
much as "kick me up to speed" assist. I'm thinking a small
RC-helicopter style motor that's only good for 30s at a time, but that
would get me to 30kph or so much faster that I can do it by myself.
Combines with a smallish power pack from RC toys, it could make for a
very lightweight addition. I'm also looking at the disk rotor mount of
the Rohloff and wondering about using that.
I vaguely recall one of the CF lowracer guys having built one but
can't recall the details.
Is anyone doing this, or better, making a kit?
Moz
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[Paul Bell]

Haven't been looking much at the HPV sites lately. Johns type of drive is
kinda like what I was thinking with the stokemonkey simplicity.
Cheers,
Paul

Post by John Riley
You have been around awhile, so you may have already seen this, but FWIW
John Tetz did a lot of work with minimal assist.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/tetz/E-AssistMetric/default.htm

Post by Moz
Riding my velo around I keep thinking I don't want power assist so
much as "kick me up to speed" assist. I'm thinking a small
RC-helicopter style motor that's only good for 30s at a time, but that
would get me to 30kph or so much faster that I can do it by myself.
Combines with a smallish power pack from RC toys, it could make for a
very lightweight addition. I'm also looking at the disk rotor mount of
the Rohloff and wondering about using that.
I vaguely recall one of the CF lowracer guys having built one but
can't recall the details.
Is anyone doing this, or better, making a kit?
Moz
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[Michael Ross]

The OT velo is using RC stuff, but I don't know any specifics. If I did
know I would need to keep quiet because I've done the preliminary paperwork
to be a beta tester. NDA signed and all that.

If you look at the Team <http://www.organictransit.com/team.html> link on
the OT website you will see the founders are all pretty well set with bona
fides. I have met Rob Cotter. He seems pretty sharp. Not a novice.

Mike

Post by Paul Bell
Haven't been looking much at the HPV sites lately. Johns type of drive is
kinda like what I was thinking with the stokemonkey simplicity.
Cheers,
Paul

Post by John Riley
You have been around awhile, so you may have already seen this, but FWIW
John Tetz did a lot of work with minimal assist.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/tetz/E-AssistMetric/default.htm

Post by Moz
Riding my velo around I keep thinking I don't want power assist so
much as "kick me up to speed" assist. I'm thinking a small
RC-helicopter style motor that's only good for 30s at a time, but that
would get me to 30kph or so much faster that I can do it by myself.
Combines with a smallish power pack from RC toys, it could make for a
very lightweight addition. I'm also looking at the disk rotor mount of
the Rohloff and wondering about using that.
I vaguely recall one of the CF lowracer guys having built one but
can't recall the details.
Is anyone doing this, or better, making a kit?
Moz
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[Ph.T]

. here are some (untested) motor links
http://www.electrathonamerica.org/Resource_Links.html
(from a source I'm betting won't let you down).
. one great thing about Organic Transit
is the site's inclusion of a real designer:
C. Michael Lewis claims the title for building
the World's Most Efficient Electric Vehicle.
. his intro has links to electrathonamerica.org
http://www.electrathonamerica.org/Welcome_to_Electrathon_America.html
where every car is built efficiently
http://www.electrathonamerica.org/News.html
and some look like real vehicles,
not politically correct bugs .
. sit up straight like your mama said ...
. I do like their TruckIt however
because it's a nice motorhome not just a vehicle !
(USA capitalists sent my job to china,
then USA bankers took my house,
I live in my TruckIT now, outside of USA city limits... )
.. alas, that OT model you cannot buy,
because it's still in development.
(documentation is in future emails)
http://eepurl.com/sjhwb
. check out this writeup:
The solar-powered bike-car thingy we’ve all been waiting for .
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2012/12/17/the-solar-powered-bike-car-thingy-weve-all-been-waiting-for/
. if you wanted some documentation skip that;
what's important is he sneezed at the Elf .
(the Elf's only hope is tilting)
http://www.jetrike.com/why-does-tilting-matter.html
and see the faq:
When will the TruckIt be available?
http://www.organictransit.com/faq.html
We expect to have new prototypes for the TruckIt in Spring 2013,
and be ready to roll them out by summer.

Post by Michael Ross
The OT velo is using RC stuff, but I don't know any specifics. If I did
know I would need to keep quiet because I've done the preliminary paperwork
to be a beta tester. NDA signed and all that.
If you look at the Team <http://www.organictransit.com/team.html> link on
the OT website you will see the founders are all pretty well set with bona
fides. I have met Rob Cotter. He seems pretty sharp. Not a novice.
Mike

Post by Paul Bell
Haven't been looking much at the HPV sites lately. Johns type of drive is
kinda like what I was thinking with the stokemonkey simplicity.
Cheers,
Paul

Post by John Riley
You have been around awhile, so you may have already seen this, but

FWIW

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley
John Tetz did a lot of work with minimal assist.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/tetz/E-AssistMetric/default.htm

Post by Moz
Riding my velo around I keep thinking I don't want power assist so
much as "kick me up to speed" assist. I'm thinking a small
RC-helicopter style motor that's only good for 30s at a time, but

that

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley

Post by Moz
would get me to 30kph or so much faster that I can do it by myself.
Combines with a smallish power pack from RC toys, it could make for a
very lightweight addition. I'm also looking at the disk rotor mount

of

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley

Post by Moz
the Rohloff and wondering about using that.
I vaguely recall one of the CF lowracer guys having built one but
can't recall the details.
Is anyone doing this, or better, making a kit?
Moz
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*Dalai Lama *
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Thomas A. Edison<
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*
Michael E. Ross
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[Bob Stuart]

Post by Ph.T
The solar-powered bike-car thingy we’ve all been waiting for .
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2012/12/17/the-solar-
powered-bike-car-thingy-weve-all-been-waiting-for/

I was surprised one day, to have a truck-driving friend of mine
delightedly declare that he had just gotten qualified to drive a
tractor without a trailer - bobtailing. The TruckIt looks similarly
treacherous if unladen. I like to be able to brake and turn at the
same time when things get exciting.

Bob Stuart
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[Michael Ross]

My thoughts exactly. The two in the back sort of creeps me out when you
can just do two in the front.

However, I have seen Ketts handle really well, so low CG may mitigate a lot
of this trouble. There is nothing to say they can't get the CG low on the
TruckIT if they work at it. Cushman had a going concern making little yard
dogs and delivery vans in delta configuration.

I am not sure yet why anyone would sniff or sneeze at the ELF. It may be
very good at the sort of urban noodling and shopping they are marketing it
for. A bit pricey for all that, but still it does have merit - having
ridden one. It seems to be popular, and that in itself is important. I
wonder if Lewis has actually driven an ELF.

Post by Bob Stuart

Post by Ph.T
The solar-powered bike-car thingy we’ve all been waiting for .
http://blogs.**scientificamerican.com/**plugged-in/2012/12/17/the-**
solar-powered-bike-car-thingy-**weve-all-been-waiting-for/<http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2012/12/17/the-solar-powered-bike-car-thingy-weve-all-been-waiting-for/>

I was surprised one day, to have a truck-driving friend of mine
delightedly declare that he had just gotten qualified to drive a tractor
without a trailer - bobtailing. The TruckIt looks similarly treacherous if
unladen. I like to be able to brake and turn at the same time when things
get exciting.
Bob Stuart
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*Dalai Lama *

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Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
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[l***@thatsart.org]

Carrying a 60 Watt panel around does not make a velomobil "solar powered" and trickle charging a lithium battery is a really bad idea and on the dangerous side.
A 60W panel generates 45-50W/day, so all it will do is feeding your lights or phones for some time, but compare this to the 750 W electric assist.. (and the panel is 12V, the motor 36 or more..) -
better to leave the panel at home and win on less weight..

Lui

The solar-powered bike-car thingy we've all been waiting for .
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2012/12/17/the-solar-powered-bike-car-thingy-weve-all-been-waiting-for/
. if you wanted some documentation skip that;
what's important is he sneezed at the Elf .
(the Elf's only hope is tilting)
http://www.jetrike.com/why-does-tilting-matter.html
When will the TruckIt be available?
http://www.organictransit.com/faq.html
We expect to have new prototypes for the TruckIt in Spring 2013,
and be ready to roll them out by summer.

Post by Michael Ross
The OT velo is using RC stuff, but I don't know any specifics. If I did
know I would need to keep quiet because I've done the preliminary paperwork
to be a beta tester. NDA signed and all that.
If you look at the Team <http://www.organictransit.com/team.html> link on
the OT website you will see the founders are all pretty well set with bona
fides. I have met Rob Cotter. He seems pretty sharp. Not a novice.
Mike

Post by Paul Bell
Haven't been looking much at the HPV sites lately. Johns type of drive is
kinda like what I was thinking with the stokemonkey simplicity.
Cheers,
Paul

Post by John Riley
You have been around awhile, so you may have already seen this, but

FWIW

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley
John Tetz did a lot of work with minimal assist.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/tetz/E-AssistMetric/default.htm

Post by Moz
Riding my velo around I keep thinking I don't want power assist so
much as "kick me up to speed" assist. I'm thinking a small
RC-helicopter style motor that's only good for 30s at a time, but

that

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley

Post by Moz
would get me to 30kph or so much faster that I can do it by myself.
Combines with a smallish power pack from RC toys, it could make for a
very lightweight addition. I'm also looking at the disk rotor mount

of

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley

Post by Moz
the Rohloff and wondering about using that.
I vaguely recall one of the CF lowracer guys having built one but
can't recall the details.
Is anyone doing this, or better, making a kit?
Moz
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happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison<
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*
Michael E. Ross
[phone] Land
[phone] <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
[phone] Cell
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[Ph.T]

@Lui,
sorry if you didn't find affection in my
razz about USA's ways of doing things;
I don't live on the street,
and the TruckIt is not my thing;
but, are you sure about 60W panel size?
that is for the Elf not the TruckIt .
. and what makes you think it's dangerous?
don't trust a USA regulator? ;) .
http://genasun.com/

Post by l***@thatsart.org
Carrying a 60 Watt panel around does not make a velomobil "solar powered"
and trickle charging a lithium battery is a really bad idea and on the
dangerous side.
A 60W panel generates 45-50W/day, so all it will do is feeding your lights
or phones for some time, but compare this to the 750 W electric assist..
(and the panel is 12V, the motor 36 or more..) -
better to leave the panel at home and win on less weight..
Lui

The solar-powered bike-car thingy we've all been waiting for .

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2012/12/17/the-solar-powered-bike-car-thingy-weve-all-been-waiting-for/

. if you wanted some documentation skip that;
what's important is he sneezed at the Elf .
(the Elf's only hope is tilting)
http://www.jetrike.com/why-does-tilting-matter.html
When will the TruckIt be available?
http://www.organictransit.com/faq.html
We expect to have new prototypes for the TruckIt in Spring 2013,
and be ready to roll them out by summer.

Visit http://hupi.org/mailman/listinfo/trikes to manage your subscription.

[Michael Ross]

The 60W panel currently being put on the OT ELF doesn't weight a half a
kilo. They are working on sourcing a 120W panel, slight better, and some
what longer and wider as I understand it. If that doubles which is not an
entirely unreasonable wish for the future, you really have something.

60W is fine to charge fully during a work day if the sun is bright. But
you would need to plug in overnight if commuting. For my commute the cost
of plugged power would be $0.10 versus $5 to put gas in my car. Wear and
tear comparison is bound to be better as well. Not bad.

Incorrect charging will indeed cause problems with Li cells, but it is also
possible to do it correctly.

Post by l***@thatsart.org
Carrying a 60 Watt panel around does not make a velomobil "solar powered"
and trickle charging a lithium battery is a really bad idea and on the
dangerous side.
A 60W panel generates 45-50W/day, so all it will do is feeding your lights
or phones for some time, but compare this to the 750 W electric assist..
(and the panel is 12V, the motor 36 or more..) -
better to leave the panel at home and win on less weight..
Lui

The solar-powered bike-car thingy we've all been waiting for .

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2012/12/17/the-solar-powered-bike-car-thingy-weve-all-been-waiting-for/

. if you wanted some documentation skip that;
what's important is he sneezed at the Elf .
(the Elf's only hope is tilting)
http://www.jetrike.com/why-does-tilting-matter.html
When will the TruckIt be available?
http://www.organictransit.com/faq.html
We expect to have new prototypes for the TruckIt in Spring 2013,
and be ready to roll them out by summer.

Post by Michael Ross
The OT velo is using RC stuff, but I don't know any specifics. If I did
know I would need to keep quiet because I've done the preliminary

paperwork

Post by Michael Ross
to be a beta tester. NDA signed and all that.
If you look at the Team <http://www.organictransit.com/team.html> link

on

Post by Michael Ross
the OT website you will see the founders are all pretty well set with

bona

Post by Michael Ross
fides. I have met Rob Cotter. He seems pretty sharp. Not a novice.
Mike

Post by Paul Bell
Haven't been looking much at the HPV sites lately. Johns type of

drive is

Post by Michael Ross

Post by Paul Bell
kinda like what I was thinking with the stokemonkey simplicity.
Cheers,
Paul

Post by John Riley
You have been around awhile, so you may have already seen this, but

FWIW

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley
John Tetz did a lot of work with minimal assist.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/tetz/E-AssistMetric/default.htm

Post by Moz
Riding my velo around I keep thinking I don't want power assist so
much as "kick me up to speed" assist. I'm thinking a small
RC-helicopter style motor that's only good for 30s at a time, but

that

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley

Post by Moz
would get me to 30kph or so much faster that I can do it by

myself.

Post by Michael Ross

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley

Post by Moz
Combines with a smallish power pack from RC toys, it could make

for a

Post by Michael Ross

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley

Post by Moz
very lightweight addition. I'm also looking at the disk rotor

mount

Post by Michael Ross
of

Post by Paul Bell

Post by John Riley

Post by Moz
the Rohloff and wondering about using that.
I vaguely recall one of the CF lowracer guys having built one but
can't recall the details.
Is anyone doing this, or better, making a kit?
Moz
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*Dalai Lama *
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison<
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*
Michael E. Ross
[phone] Land
[phone] <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
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Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
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Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
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[l***@thatsart.org]

Post by Michael Ross
The 60W panel currently being put on the OT ELF doesn't weight a half a
kilo. They are working on sourcing a 120W panel, slight better, and some
what longer and wider as I understand it. If that doubles which is not an
entirely unreasonable wish for the future, you really have something.

We had an electric scooter (with 48V 20Ah LiFe pack) Scooter range 40km, battery pack replaced after some month /warranty, 2nd pack dead after 20 months. Costs for battery, shipping, handling etc around Euro 1180 ( Dollar 1550) The scooter did 7600 km, now add the charging costs and one replaced charging unit (90 Euro)
From an ecological view charging the vehicle from plug means coal, oil, gas, atomic plants as energy source plus conversion and line losses; would be interesting how much oil has to be burnt for a full charge of the pack..

Post by Michael Ross
60W is fine to charge fully during a work day if the sun is bright. But
you would need to plug in overnight if commuting. For my commute the cost
of plugged power would be $0.10 versus $5 to put gas in my car. Wear and
tear comparison is bound to be better as well. Not bad.

Yes nice, but it would not drive the trike..

Post by Michael Ross
Incorrect charging will indeed cause problems with Li cells, but it is also
possible to do it correctly.

Not with trickle charging Li batteries..

Lui
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[Michael Ross]

You like to make provocative statements. I must ask you to defend them a
bit.

"From an ecological view charging the vehicle from plug means coal, oil,
gas, atomic plants as energy source plus conversion and line losses; would
be interesting how much oil has to be burnt for a full charge of the pack."

I suspect that the $0.10 or so I have to pay for a kilowatt hour really is
the cost of the power - plus some profit. The local utilities are not in
the habit of giving their product away for free.

"> 60W is fine to charge fully during a work day if the sun is bright. But

Post by Michael Ross
you would need to plug in overnight if commuting. For my commute the cost
of plugged power would be $0.10 versus $5 to put gas in my car. Wear and
tear comparison is bound to be better as well. Not bad.

Yes nice, but it would not drive the trike.."

I really don't understand your comment. The battery pack holds 480Watt
hours so a kWh ought to charge it

<http://www.organictransit.com/models.html>
Specs: http://www.organictransit.com/models.html

That provides 30 miles of assistance (I am not sure how that is portioned
out pedal work vs battery work). I believe this is already proven. They
have been built and tested. So on what basis do you challenge this?

"> Incorrect charging will indeed cause problems with Li cells, but it is
also

Post by Michael Ross
possible to do it correctly.

Not with trickle charging Li batteries."

Again, I am not following your thought process here. I am not sure how you
mean trickle charging.

There is a charge controller used to properly manage battery charging.
Perhaps this is different from whatever you mean by trickle charging.

It is pretty clear that Li batteries can be charged so that there are no
problems. Why do you think it is not possible for this system to do
likewise?

Or are you just saying that the OT people must be lying? You should have
some valid basis for that other than opinion.

Are you privy to the specifications of systems implemented on this machine?

Are you aware of some technological reason why they cannot be charged
correctly from a solar cell, whether it be 60W, 120W, or 240W?

Regards,

MIke
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Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
[phone] Land
[phone] <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
[phone] Cell
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[l***@thatsart.org]

Post by Michael Ross
You like to make provocative statements. I must ask you to defend them a
bit.
"From an ecological view charging the vehicle from plug means coal, oil,
gas, atomic plants as energy source plus conversion and line losses; would
be interesting how much oil has to be burnt for a full charge of the pack."
I suspect that the $0.10 or so I have to pay for a kilowatt hour really is
the cost of the power - plus some profit. The local utilities are not in
the habit of giving their product away for free.

They dont, but you and I do - paying taxes. Each and any state is sponsoring his energy sources, not only for solar, wind but there were going billions of taxpayers money into atomic plants, coal and oil..

Post by Michael Ross
"> 60W is fine to charge fully during a work day if the sun is bright. But

Post by Michael Ross
you would need to plug in overnight if commuting. For my commute the cost
of plugged power would be $0.10 versus $5 to put gas in my car. Wear and
tear comparison is bound to be better as well. Not bad.

Yes nice, but it would not drive the trike.."
I really don't understand your comment. The battery pack holds 480Watt
hours so a kWh ought to charge it

Its called solar-electric and this is, ahem, misleading because it runs from plug and not from solar on the trike..

Post by Michael Ross
Again, I am not following your thought process here. I am not sure how you
mean trickle charging.

see:
http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

-----------------------snip
It is important to note that trickle charging is not acceptable for lithium batteries. The Li-ion chemistry cannot accept an overcharge without causing damage to the cell, possibly plating out lithium metal and becoming hazardous.
snip---------------

Lui

Post by Michael Ross
There is a charge controller used to properly manage battery charging.
Perhaps this is different from whatever you mean by trickle charging.
It is pretty clear that Li batteries can be charged so that there are no
problems. Why do you think it is not possible for this system to do
likewise?
Or are you just saying that the OT people must be lying? You should have
some valid basis for that other than opinion.
Are you privy to the specifications of systems implemented on this machine?
Are you aware of some technological reason why they cannot be charged
correctly from a solar cell, whether it be 60W, 120W, or 240W?
Regards,
MIke

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[Michael Ross]

Post by l***@thatsart.org
They dont, but you and I do - paying taxes. Each and any state is
sponsoring his energy sources, not only for solar, wind but there were
going billions of taxpayers money into atomic plants, coal and oil..
Sure I know all that. And a gallon of gas really costs $15 . No argument

there.

I was talking about my own cost. I will get payback in pretty decent time
if the thing functions as planned. it will cost me about $0.10 to charge
it once by wall current and if I park it on a sunny day while I work it
will charge just fine for free. Compare that to my gas cost to drive my
car of about $5 at today's prices give or take a bit.


Its called solar-electric and this is, ahem, misleading because it runs

Post by l***@thatsart.org
from plug and not from solar on the trike..

Please don't get snotty, there is no reason for that. You read something
into this that I never said.
But, it IS solar and electric, if you plug in some times, and you leave it
in the sun other times, it will charge either way.

It is has a 60W cell right now. And it is set up to be plugged in as the
main source of power. If you park it for 7 hours they on a roughly
1000W/m^2 day you will get a full charge (we get 1300W/m^2 but it probably
averages out lower depending on what you define as a day for averaging).

60W cell, that clearly will not work as the sole source if you ride beyond
30miles plus whatever is offset by pedaling. OT thinks that 240 watts
from a mounted solar cell is possible in the future. At that rate you
would only need wall power it it is overcast. That seems like a reasonable
statement to me. There is already room for a 120W panel on it.

Post by l***@thatsart.org

Post by Michael Ross
Again, I am not following your thought process here. I am not sure how

you

Post by Michael Ross
mean trickle charging.

http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

By your definition then, the OT ELF is not trickle charged. It is a
controlled charge. There should be no problems letting the sun charge
it because the process is manged to keep the batteries healthy.

If I ever said it was trickle charged (I do not believe I did), then I
misspoke.

Post by l***@thatsart.org
-----------------------snip
It is important to note that trickle charging is not acceptable for
lithium batteries. The Li-ion chemistry cannot accept an overcharge without
causing damage to the cell, possibly plating out lithium metal and becoming
hazardous.
snip---------------
I absolutely agree. I never said otherwise.
Lui

Post by Michael Ross
There is a charge controller used to properly manage battery charging.
Perhaps this is different from whatever you mean by trickle charging.
It is pretty clear that Li batteries can be charged so that there are no
problems. Why do you think it is not possible for this system to do
likewise?
Or are you just saying that the OT people must be lying? You should have
some valid basis for that other than opinion.
Are you privy to the specifications of systems implemented on this

machine?

Post by Michael Ross
Are you aware of some technological reason why they cannot be charged
correctly from a solar cell, whether it be 60W, 120W, or 240W?

Hmm, nothing to say here, I guess.

Post by l***@thatsart.org

Post by Michael Ross
Regards,
MIke

--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
[phone] Land
[phone] <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
[phone] Cell
[phone] Desk

***@gmail.com
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[l***@thatsart.org]

Post by Michael Ross
I was talking about my own cost. I will get payback in pretty decent time
if the thing functions as planned. it will cost me about $0.10 to charge
it once by wall current and if I park it on a sunny day while I work it
will charge just fine for free. Compare that to my gas cost to drive my
car of about $5 at today's prices give or take a bit.

Battery and charger ca. 900 Dollar will last at best for 3 years, power typically bows down after 250 cycles..

Post by Michael Ross
Its called solar-electric and this is, ahem, misleading because it runs

Post by l***@thatsart.org
from plug and not from solar on the trike..

Please don't get snotty, there is no reason for that. You read something
into this that I never said.

Its not you, in all the writing about Elf and TruckIt you will find the "solar driven", website or reports, cannot find it runs mainly from plug ..

Post by Michael Ross
But, it IS solar and electric, if you plug in some times, and you leave it
in the sun other times, it will charge either way.

Charging a 48 V battery with a 12V Panel > step up converter> losses 20%, charging a lithium battery 10-30 % losses on primary energy, depending on temperature and other factors.
With the earnings from a 60W panel you can fire up two 10 W lamps for 2 hours in winter and 8 hours in summer.. and dont try to tell me something about solar. our house runs on it since 1987..

Lui

---------------------snip

Post by Michael Ross
It is has a 60W cell right now. And it is set up to be plugged in as the
main source of power. If you park it for 7 hours they on a roughly
1000W/m^2 day you will get a full charge (we get 1300W/m^2 but it probably
averages out lower depending on what you define as a day for averaging).
60W cell, that clearly will not work as the sole source if you ride beyond
30miles plus whatever is offset by pedaling. OT thinks that 240 watts
from a mounted solar cell is possible in the future. At that rate you
would only need wall power it it is overcast. That seems like a reasonable
statement to me. There is already room for a 120W panel on it.

Post by l***@thatsart.org

Post by Michael Ross
Again, I am not following your thought process here. I am not sure how

you

Post by Michael Ross
mean trickle charging.

http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

By your definition then, the OT ELF is not trickle charged. It is a
controlled charge. There should be no problems letting the sun charge
it because the process is manged to keep the batteries healthy.
If I ever said it was trickle charged (I do not believe I did), then I
misspoke.

Post by l***@thatsart.org
-----------------------snip
It is important to note that trickle charging is not acceptable for
lithium batteries. The Li-ion chemistry cannot accept an overcharge without
causing damage to the cell, possibly plating out lithium metal and becoming
hazardous.
snip---------------
I absolutely agree. I never said otherwise.
Lui

Post by Michael Ross
There is a charge controller used to properly manage battery charging.
Perhaps this is different from whatever you mean by trickle charging.
It is pretty clear that Li batteries can be charged so that there are no
problems. Why do you think it is not possible for this system to do
likewise?
Or are you just saying that the OT people must be lying? You should have
some valid basis for that other than opinion.
Are you privy to the specifications of systems implemented on this

machine?

Post by Michael Ross
Are you aware of some technological reason why they cannot be charged
correctly from a solar cell, whether it be 60W, 120W, or 240W?

Hmm, nothing to say here, I guess.

Post by l***@thatsart.org

Post by Michael Ross
Regards,
MIke

--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A.
Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*
Michael E. Ross
[phone] Land
[phone] <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
[phone] Cell
[phone] Desk

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[Moz]

Post by John Riley
You have been around awhile, so you may have already seen this, but
FWIW John Tetz did a lot of work with minimal assist.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/tetz/E-AssistMetric/default.htm

That seems very like what I was remembering, but I'm sure I saw one on
a bike. Anyway, that's what I want :) Thanks for the link!

Moz

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[Paul Bell]

I'd say something like a Stokemonkey setup. Lots of large cheap motors and
lithium batteries.
Try hobbyking.com for motors, batteries and charges. Should be able to
build a nice assist motor but at a fraction of the size.
Biggest problem would be adapting a freewheel or similar to the smaller
electric motor shaft. Easily doable on a lathe....
Check it out.
http://clevercycles.com/blog/products/stokemonkey/
We are getting a new cnc router at work this month. I might get a chance to
cut some aluminum brackets to mount motor to frame with support for a frame.
Check out http://www.ecalc.ch/motorcalc_e.htm if you really want to go with
a prop type drive.
Any question feel free to ask :)
Cheers,
Paul

Post by Moz
Riding my velo around I keep thinking I don't want power assist so
much as "kick me up to speed" assist. I'm thinking a small
RC-helicopter style motor that's only good for 30s at a time, but that
would get me to 30kph or so much faster that I can do it by myself.
Combines with a smallish power pack from RC toys, it could make for a
very lightweight addition. I'm also looking at the disk rotor mount of
the Rohloff and wondering about using that.
I vaguely recall one of the CF lowracer guys having built one but
can't recall the details.
Is anyone doing this, or better, making a kit?
Moz
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[john fisher]

scuse me for butting in, but the best info on making fast e-bicycles is on a forum with a weird name - endlesssphere

They are using the 2K-6K Turnigy motors and others on bicycles. Its hard to keep them cool, but you get a lot of power
out of a small package. There is a lot of experimentation there, a huge amount really. Guys are racing them at kart
tracks and beating the gas bikes.

check it out.

-- John Fisher
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