trikes Digest, Vol 88, Issue 2

[Sharon O'Hara]

Hi - I am getting a second battery to help me up and over the hills - what is the steepest grade you've done in the ELF?

Thanks!


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1. Re: New electric assist trike nearing first production
(Derryl Cocks)
2. Re: New electric assist trike nearing first production (Ph.T)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 12:07:59 -0400
Subject: Re: [trikes] New electric assist trike nearing first
production
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi Mike
What is the ELF like in rain? Are you keeping dry enough with the open
design of the body?
Does the front screen keep clear enough to see or do you need some sort of
wiper?
Thanks
Derryl
I have a couple hundred miles on the ELF now. I can do my commute and it

isn't bad at all....

------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 14:53:05 -0700
Subject: Re: [trikes] New electric assist trike nearing first
production
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
for shorter cranks for my trike I got
http://www.amazon.com/Ride2-Crank-Arm-Shorteners-43mm/dp/B002N2KJ7W

No replies this time, that is odd.
I have a couple hundred miles on the ELF now. I can do my commute and it
isn't bad at all. I can average about 21.5mph for the 24 mile trip. This
is with my husbanding resources, both mine and the batteries. I get 14
miles from one allegedly 9Ah battery. I believe with more fitness I will
be able to average 23mph. Part of it will be learning how to use the
batteries best. I have some power to spare, but I am making sure I don't
run out. It is much too heavy for unassisted pedaling on inclines.
I really do want some shorter cranks, I just can't spin 175mm ones as well
as I like.
I like it, I can get where I need to go quickly enough, it takes off at
lights and crest hills so much better than I can do on a non-assisted
xxcycle. The exercise is at a really good level. I can maintain a good
level of work and I don't blow up on hills. I am more liable to over
extend on slight downhills where I turn the transmission all the way up and
work as hard as I can for the cadence. But, I can rest and use the motor,
then work some more.
I am pretty happy with it. It does what they say. If you are hearty you
can do more.
There are some fragility issues with bodywork, but any HPV has to work at
the edge of durability to keep weight down.
Mike
I have ridden at night, and the wind screen was to reflective of the
interior and ground and I have a hard time seeing the road. But I made a
dash board that does the trick. I have already started depending on it for
towels, a hat, a flashlight, and a water bottle.

HI all,
I finally have my ELF and some time to mess with it. I thought y'all
might like to hear a little about it. I can't be to revealing because I
signed an NDA and got a deal to do beta testing (log comments

essentially).

I said some things that were probably based on old information from a
website that needed cleaning up, and from comments by people who probably
should have been more circumspect or silent.
"I think I can really make good use of one. My commute is 23.5 miles

each

way. More than I can do even if I was fast - it just takes too much

time.

This thing will go a full 30 miles without pedaling, I am not sure if

that

is at full, electric only, speed. But, it should be fine with a legs and
battery power. It has a solar panel, and can be charged from wall

current

in two hours. So I can easily get to work and back. It will go a lot
faster than 20mph with leg power. I might maintain 25mph or more for the
trip, double what my legs alone can do on a good day with a lighter

trike.

It will exceed 40mph if you can spin well. I don't know if it is geared
for higher."
I still think I will be able to make the commute, but I will have to
regain some fitness. Yesterday I went shopping and to a brewery for a
beer. The first leg I averaged 21.7mph, hit 34.4mph on one hill, then I
moseyed around for a little while socializing, bought a gallon of juice,
and 4 lb of popcorn, and headed home. Final average speed was 19mph. 14
miles total. Seemed like I worked pretty hard. The trike weighs 120lb

and

I am currently just under 260. I had an extra battery I did not use
(13.4lb), and jug of water. I have made some other shorter ride, one at
night.
The comment about 30 miles without pedaling, is not something I can get.
Maybe a small person in flat country, a best case scenario. I see

claims

like that are completely absent t from the website now. I can't see
anything they are saying that I would disagree with now. I think it is

all

the claim it is. But less than I was claiming. I heard I would recharge
in 2 hours, but the charger they gave me took twice that. I am not sure

of

the state of charge after my ride. I believe it is a 10Ah battery

LiFePO4.

It is stoutly made and not light. So far I think it seems like a very

good

first attempt. It rides quite nicely and felt very confident at 30+mph.
Some times it cuts off hard (going down as fast as possible), one time I
was cruising at 25mph and still getting some help, I think because the
acceleration was low? It won't give much help unless I gear it

differently

or hack something. I have had to revise my hopes for a 30mph commute

down

a lot., BUt maybe I can average 22 fairly soon.
Earlier Bob Stuart made some comments back channel and I thought you all
might be interested in them and how I find the ELF in that regard.
Why do you think it will go faster with leg power? The booster cuts out,
leaving you on your own over 20 MPH, and probably unable to maintain 21.
You'd need a major downhill to see 40.
MR:Right on the money. But I think I can keep it up above 21.
I see seven videos to choose from, and no contrary claims for speed. If
it is fast, they'd brag, not hint. These things are usually very

hackable.

The 20 MPH limit is sometimes imposed by a jumper wire that can be moved
according to market. As long as you are visibly pedaling, the police
usually have something else to worry about.
MR: I think it can be done with a PC. (Kelly Controls)
My guess would be that without a booster, you would not be able to
maintain the speed you get from a plain bicycle. Given how easy
streamlining is, I'd expect to get at least a third more speed from any
rainproof enclosure, so to me, adding power is like throwing hardware at

a

software problem. Legally, it is the only way to cruise over 20.

However,

the first thing I'd want to change is the motor control. A separate

switch

makes a pedelec feel like a woefully underpowered regular vehicle. A
pedal-force multiplier, OTOH, can use the same power that makes you a
frustrated motorist and make you feel like a superman on pedals. At

these

power levels, that gets more important, as your own contribution

otherwise

feels insignificant, and you don't even get your exercise motivation.
MR:I am doing OK with the thumb accelerator, but the idea of a pedal
switch is interesting. I would need an override for it.
You don't want to feel as if you are riding an exercycle on display in an
awkward little cart, disrupting traffic. All the green points available

to

man don't make that look cool.
MR: Well, it is an exercycle to me...but I am not cool. This isn't an
awkward cart though, it is a pretty good trike. I have a good route, low
density, 45mph limit.
BS: At these price levels, you also want to check on durability and
serviceability,
MR: So far I am pretty happy with it. It is well built. Maybe some trim
component issues.
BS: and ask yourself if you will be able to put up with the drum-like

road

noise amplification over the long haul. Try to get a decibel reading,

and

ponder the enormous health and productivity gains realized by efforts to
quiet down offices. Would you be safe with noise-canceling headphones

on?

MR: It isn't noisy enough that I can remember except on rough pavement.
IT is doorless and that seems like a goo compromise. The breeze is OK

for

moderate temps that I have seen, side winds aren't an issue so far, and

it

doesn't sound like being in a barrel or anything.
Your numbers don't add up. The power required at 30 mph is double to
triple what you need at 20.
MS: I am in total agreement, now. Maybe with some hot rodding and

shorter

cranks... The ride is half down hill, half uphill, so maybe I can make up
some time on the downsides.
Bob also brought up lighting controls, ELF has an OK handle bar switch

for

headlamps, turns,LEDs, and a horn relay so these switches see little

power.

May be OK wait and see. Brake lights from a disc brake mounted switch
(have not looked close at that) I think I want a dash to reduce

reflection

from below. Some black fabric can do that. And, I just like more forward
light so will do more there.
That's all for now. I just wanted to correct some things I said that

were

incorrect or dated.
Thanks for all past and future comments.
Mike
--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison<

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*
Michael E. Ross
[phone] Land
[phone] <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
Phone
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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison<
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*
Michael E. Ross
[phone] Land
[phone] <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
Phone
[phone] Cell
[phone] Desk
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[Michael Ross]

Hi Sharon,

I don't have any way to answer that with accuracy. Here, in Raleigh and
eastward to where I live are hills, that in my current state of fitness I
would not go up them more than 5 mph. I seem to be able to go 17 or 18 mph
over the steepest ones I have seen in my limited travels. I don't consider
these hills to be worthy of referencing with a percent grade designation;
however, it is not what I would call flat here either. Geologically it is
the eastern piedmont, and it truly flat eastward from where I live. IMO
we do not have very steep hills here. What hills I have on my commute I
can top them at 20 mph or more.

I want to get longer battery milage so I do work at a sustainable hard
pace. I am also overweight at 6 feet tall and 255 lb (and dropping), and
carry a fair amount of gear 20 lb? And 27 lb of batteries.

You can't tell how your own use will compare given all the variables that
are likely different.

Tell me where you live, how far you want to go, how fast, and how much you
and your gear weigh, and probably most important, your level of fitness,
past cycling experience, and willingness to work hard on your ride. Then,
I might be able to hypothesize about what you can do.

It appears that we can get larger batteries online for considerably less
that the ones the ELF was built for - batteries that fit into the battery
tray or storage box in the back. The suppliers are all Chinese (including
those that OT is using). There is some risk in buying from these folks.
Their webpages are often poorly translated, not very clear, and with
some conflicting information. For instance, the battery I have ordered is
listed as 9kg in one place and 12kg in another.

I think since my current 10 and 9 Amp hour batteries are 6 kg, that a 12 kg
battery is more likely to be the quoted 20 Amp hours rather than the 9 kg
one. I don't have a clear idea how any of these batteries are measured, if
at all. I am prepared to find out I really have a 15 AMp hour battery
coming, it is still less expensive.

I have heard that beta testers who do not contribute much, or no work at
all to the ELF can get about 6 miles between charges from a 9 AMp hour
battery. I have gotten 18 miles at an average speed of 18 to 20 mph. If I
go faster I sacrifice distance per charge. If I go 23 mph on average, I
get maybe 12 miles. I am working as hard as I am able. On a regular
bicycle I might be able to average 11 or 12 mph on these routes.

I think this is a very practical range of mileage and speed, but you must
not over do what you have battery power to cover or you will be stuck.
Take you cell phone, and know someone with a truck, or be conservative.

I get more from the 10 Amp hour battery I have which is apparently
significantly more expensive for the function it provides than the 9 Amp
hour ones.

We should all be sharing notes on battery prices and suppliers, as this is
the main contributor to the utility of the ELF. On any kind of incline it
is much too heavy for unassisted pedalling.

I don't know if we should keep using the trikes list, as some people don't
like to here about electric assist. On the other hand, there is no other
conversation here, so I am not sure why anyone would care. There are
probably better lists and forums to join.

Started this thread in this list because there are people here whose
opinions I really respect and trust.

Mike

Post by Sharon O'Hara
Hi - I am getting a second battery to help me up and over the hills - what
is the steepest grade you've done in the ELF?

--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
[phone] Land
[phone] <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
[phone] Cell
[phone] Desk

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